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Date: 5/14/2003 5:47:00 PM
From Authorid: 54987
Oh and you forgot the Torah! I think it's just ignorant people who believe Wiccans believe in Satan. Do wiccans belong to covens? Now I don't know. I thought only witches belonged to covens. Is that ignorance again? About religion classes in school. Well I see problems in that Christian schools would cause a parental backlash if other religions were talked about. The same with Islam and so forth. If it was going to be taught then it should be taught by the spiritual leaders in those religions otherwise you might get prejudice and misinformation. If Christianity is taught it should involve all the different sects.  |
Date: 5/14/2003 6:12:00 PM
From Authorid: 24924
Ignorance; that is why. The same reason many people say and insist that atheists are "evil, wicked and unlawful; immoral, blah blah blah..". Mercy me, I sure wish there were courses one could do indepth studies on the many different religions; their origins, tenets, practices; the whole shebang. It sure would help in the tolerance department, but I also think it would send a lot of people running....away from religion, IMHO.  |
Date: 5/14/2003 6:14:00 PM
From Authorid: 39949
i too believed they did....but if im wrong i will admitt it.god bless....esp911(also a jesus freak)  |
Date: 5/14/2003 6:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 30630
Ok. Here goes. I am Wiccan. I am a witch. I don't believe in Satan. Therefore I cannot be a "satan worshipper". This is a really touchy subject for me tonite. At work today the other girl that I work with found out my religion. She went off saying witches are satanists and blah blah blah. I tried to make her realize that you cannot worship something that you don't believe in. It just doesn't happen like that. She said all witches practice black majick. WRONG!!! Have you ever believed in something that someone didn't and you could not make them listen to you and you couldn't defend yourself? It really isn't fun. I tried to explain to her my religion, but she is close-minded. I do not belong to a coven. I am a solitary eclectic witch. I do not believe in satan/the devil, I don't practice black majick. I don't sacrifice anything. And come to think of it I think I got off of the whole debate. I'm sorry. I was considering posting this but didn't then I saw this post and vented. Please forgive me.  |
Date: 5/14/2003 7:05:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
JESUSFREAKS IN DA HOUSE!!! Go ESP!!!  |
Date: 5/14/2003 7:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 27121
I have a few friends who are actually Wiccan and I think it's horrible that they are often criticized based on their religion. People always seem to point out at their pentagram necklaces and say that it's "evil" or it's the "sign of the devil." It's just pure ignorance. They don't know anything at all. My highschool actually has a religions course for grade 11, World Religions. It basically teaches you about the main religions of the world as well as some of the cults (though I've been told that Wicca was categorized as a cult in the course).  |
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Date: 5/14/2003 7:07:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 52140
BAD STORM!! No venting!! Just kidding |
Date: 5/14/2003 7:59:00 PM
From Authorid: 61104
Well from what I have learned it is all the same deity but each coven decides what they will call her. There are many names and they only reveal that upon initiation. There are Isis Astarte Diana Hecate Demeter Kalli Inanna and manny many more. But it is the same deity but different names used. And for the other part of the debate I agree there should be like a worl religion class. Where they study all the religions. and that is ALL the religions. Maybe it would cut down on some of the ignorance. LOL Great post!! BB   |
Date: 5/14/2003 8:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 47296
Religous ignorance has been, and always will be, the bane of mankind. No one alive can know the truth about religion, and that is any religion. Some do believe wiccans worship Satan. That is because they have never bothered to learn about Wicca. I believe that man has been around much longer than the Bible says. Am I wrong? As for whether or not religion should be taught in school, I do not think so. The problem would be finding teachers to teach such a class that would not have bias toward one religion over another. Also, too many parents would rant and rave that their kids were being taught things they do not agree with. If someone wishes to learn about other religions, the library is full of books that can teach you. All one has to do is go and check them out.  |
Date: 5/14/2003 8:44:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
there are some, and not all are Christians, who believe if you do not believe exactly how they believe, you are serving an enemy of mankind. Look at the Muslim extremists, who think Americans are the "Great Satan". And, there are SOME<-----key word here guys----->SOME Christian who believe, "......if you are not serving God, you are serving Satan". That is SO ignorant. Really, it is....to serve "Satan" you must believe in him & CHOOSE to serve him. Witches/Wiccans do NOT believe in Satan. Our's is a religion of bringing about "good" things, am I wrong here guys? I mean, I can really only speak for myself. Storm, some people REFUSE to unlearn the lie. They cling to it, as if it is some personal afront to admit that they are wrong on this issue. There are wicked people, of all religions, including mine......but education is the answer. You cannot be practical & teach religion in schools. You can set an example for morality, as long as it is not given a religious label. Remember, you do NOT have to be religious to be Moral. And, not all religious are MORAL people.....good post, JF  |
Date: 5/14/2003 9:01:00 PM
From Authorid: 29806
Well, it started with Pope Innocent, when he decided to control the pagan masses. How did he do it? Quite easy, say they worshipped the devil. Then started the witch hunts, and the executions. The Horned God image that many witches used served as "evidence" that they "worshipped the devil." Sad really. Oh, and Jesusfreak, thank you for being understanding of our religion. -ID-  |
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Date: 5/14/2003 9:09:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
yes, -ID-, they incorperated local Gods & Goddesses into "Saints", demonized others, (usually the female-empowering ones), and build churches over sacred Pagan sites. They took Sabbats & Esbbats (and feast days) & turned them into "Christian" holidays. |
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Date: 5/14/2003 9:10:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
and, I agree.....we should thank Jesus Freak & anyone else who wants to open dialog on religion. |
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Date: 5/14/2003 9:18:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
Some people adjust their lifestyle to fit their religion, others adjust their religion to fit their lifestyle. Pick and Mix religion is what I call it. I don't worship "anyone or anything". But I do have honesty, integrity, and decent morals and I believe that the Creator will worry less about what religion and belief system I am attached to. Quite frankly, there is none I believe in.  |
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Date: 5/14/2003 9:21:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
GO SHADOW GHOST!!!!! Excellent answer! and in the end, we will all find out. |
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Date: 5/14/2003 9:37:00 PM
From Authorid: 12341
The benefits of religion, many of which may be achieved without religious belief, can include spiritual well-being, charitable works, a sense of meaning and purpose, the bringing together of communities, comfort in times of distress and the unconfirmed promise of eternal life after death. This Has to be in the heart, religion will be meaningless without compassion and human understanding. |
Date: 5/15/2003 12:08:00 AM
From Authorid: 15319
Others have said it, but I'll say it again. The reason people like to say us Wiccans/Pagans are Satanic Devil Worshippers is because they are IGNORANT. They do NOT know one single thing about real Wicca, otherwise they would be not be letting their mouths write checks that their behinds can't cash (so to speak). If everyone who thought we were Satan worshippers actually sat down and RESEARCHED it instead of having their religion dictate their opinion to them, I think there would be some attitudes doing an about-face.  |
Date: 5/15/2003 5:57:00 AM
From Authorid: 62003
In college the do have world religion classes, they can't teach them at public schools (high school and middle school) becuase of the seperation of religion and state. Some people just don't know a better way to express their fear of things they don't understand so they close their minds to deal with their emotions, I'm not saying that it's right but it will take time.  |
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Date: 5/15/2003 10:03:00 AM
From Authorid: 29806
Sadly, in alot of Integrated Religion classes, Wicca/paganism is skipped over completely. -Id- |
Date: 5/15/2003 4:25:00 PM
From Authorid: 30647
I have a question because I'm just curious but who said to you that Wiccans worship Satan?  |
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Date: 5/15/2003 4:27:00 PM
From Authorid: 30647
Like seriously, name the people who think that. |
Date: 5/15/2003 6:45:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
we do not point fingers, or name names here. All you need to do is look at some of the older posts (even hit "random story" , an you will see plenty of the old "you worship Satan"-stuff. USM has toned down considerably, since "debate" & "religion" became seperate. Also, Radman & Ginger, along wth their Admins, are very careful to tone down the nastiness of days past. It still happens,,,,,,,,BTW, why do you ask? Why name names? That would be combative, don't you agree? |
Date: 5/16/2003 12:10:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Now, I am not one to point fingers, so let's just talk about some words here. The word "Satan" I see capitalized and personified as some "him". Then "he" is explained away as a "myth" who became the scapegoat of those wishing to persecute pagans. O.K. I don't believe in any entity name "satan" so I can beleive that explaination. But the word "satan" as a descriptive word meaning "adversarial to God" would mean, semantically speaking, that just about anybody could be called "satanic" at one point in their life or another as I would be willing to be that we all have said/done/thought things adversarial to Him and His Will. I would venture further in saying that the term "satanic" could correctly be applied to people of ANY religion. For someone to "worship satan", in my mind, means that the person is worshipping themself as they are using their mind (spirit) to be an adversary to God. Do Wiccans "worship satan"? Again, not any more than I am sure do people from other religions. BTW, on the teaching of different religions, I think if any one of you walked into a religious class at a PAROCHIAL high school, you'd have your socks blown off. See, they DO get religion classes and, guess what, Wicca is discussed. Now, for the third part of your debate: Which "goddess" should you worship? Like the song says "Love the one you're with." God Bless.  |
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Date: 5/16/2003 12:15:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Too late . . . should have proofread: "name" should be "named"; "beleive" should be "believe"; "willing to be" should be "willing to bet". . . God Bless. |
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Date: 5/16/2003 6:50:00 PM
From Authorid: 61104
Deb if it is located in a church then they are getting biased info. They are getting the old standby of anything not of our religion is evil. We are talk9ing about in normal schools. But as I said that is biased info. |
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Date: 5/16/2003 10:33:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
GothGirl, I never even said what was discussed. How could you infer that it is biased from that? God Bless. |
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Date: 5/17/2003 7:29:00 AM
From Authorid: 61104
Common sense Deb. I know what parochial means and it is in a church so in turn it would be biased. |
Date: 5/17/2003 2:32:00 PM
From Authorid: 57225
hmm about the whole thing, it wouldn't work out there'd be too many problems with having religion classes, although i would like it because i LOVE to research religions.  |
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Date: 5/17/2003 11:07:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
What is in a church? High school religious classes? And since you haven't seen my daughters' religion textbook, I'd have to call you the one with the "bias". God Bless. |
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Date: 5/18/2003 6:03:00 PM
From Authorid: 57225
hmm i meant religion classes in a public high school would be controversial. |
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Date: 5/18/2003 8:06:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
"Satan" is a Proper noun. Noun being "person, place, or thing......". Therefore, the proper Noun is capitalized. |
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Date: 5/18/2003 11:46:00 PM
From Authorid: 11240
Where did that information come from, LSG? God Bless. |
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Date: 5/19/2003 5:38:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Deb, the only way a religion class would not be biased would be to have scholars or leaders from the various religions come in and give seminars and classes themselves. I have yet to see a textbook discussing any aspect of history, which to me religion would fall under, that is unbiased. Even the textbooks our kids use to study American and World History are biased, and contain tainted information. |
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Date: 5/19/2003 8:41:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
No, WS, the only way for information to be disseminated in an unbiased way is to have a NUETRAL disseminator. If the people coming in to inform are "leaders from the various religions", how is their information going to be unbiased? Isn't that Goth Girl's argument, i.e., that it would be biased based on the "who" it was coming from? I firmly believe that there is far more tolerance to others' religions in parochial high schools (in which students from ALL religions DO attend) than in public schools where no formal religious studies is available. God Bless. |
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Date: 5/19/2003 8:43:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Mea culpa. Should read "are" instead of "is". God Bless. |
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Date: 5/19/2003 8:43:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Mea culpa. Should read "are" instead of "is". God Bless. |
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Date: 5/19/2003 8:43:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
Mea culpa. Should read "are" instead of "is". God Bless. |
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Date: 5/19/2003 10:19:00 AM
From Authorid: 47296
Deb, trust me, when it comes to textbooks for he school systems, there is always bias. I have gone several rounds with the school system over the information contained in their textbooks, even showing them where the information was wrong or inaccurate. The response I got was that what is in a textbook is decided by a group of people, and approved by another group. It doesn't have to be right, only agreed upon by all. What I was trying to say, for clarity, is the only way to be unbiased is to have someone from each group teach about their particular religion. They would be biased towards their own belief, which is true, but then again, so would the speaker for every other belief, therefore, after all had spoken, then there it could nto be said that bias wsa taken for one belief over another. |
Date: 5/19/2003 11:05:00 AM
From Authorid: 11240
WS, the issue at hand is the teaching of religion, from whatever source. I am not going to argue the point that textbooks aren't always accurate. That is not my argument. My point is is that WHERE RELIGION IS TAUGHT in high schools, the tolerance level for ALL religions is higher than where it is not taught due to the fact that there is OPEN DISCUSSION taking place. Goth Girl asserts that " t)hey are getting the old standby of anything not of our religion is evil," and I am telling her that just by looking at the religion textbook I can call her statement biased. The issue was that "thought" being biased, not the textbook. And again, the WHOLE CLASS CONTENT needs to be looked at in order to determine whether biased views are being put forth and with a whole host of religions being represented by the student body, INCLUDING Wiccans, the class content which includes OPEN DISCUSSION does NOT give a negative viewpoint of Wicca. And you can trust me on this one, because I HAVE argued with my daughter over what is taught/discussed. And I am so sorry for all those multiple comments . . . I really do need a new mouse (or server, whatever may be the case. God Bless. |
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Date: 5/20/2003 8:48:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
11240 Now, I am not one to point fingers, so let's just talk about some words here. The word "Satan" I see capitalized and personified as some "him". Then "he" is explained away as a "myth" who became the scapegoat of those wishing to persecute pagans. O.K. I don't believe in any entity name "satan" so I can beleive that explaination.<----Satan is capitalized as a proper noun, in the same respect Santa Claus would be. I doubt anyone at USM considers Santa Claus a jolly fat man, who lives at the North Pole with flying reindeer & delievers toys once a year. However, capitalizing his name is correct. The same with the name "Satan". Capitalizing the name in no way is to admit, or validate his existance. I simply wanted to clarify, based on your comments, which preceeded my own. |
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Date: 5/20/2003 8:54:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
and Deb, I must agree from a perspective of personal experience. I attended CHRISTIAN LIBERT ACADMY, in Prospect Heights, Illinios. In no way, was our education balanced in reference to "other" religions. In fact, our professors taught us to be quite intolerant of any who did not believe as we did. I do not see how teaching, NO religion could possibly be more intolerant than teaching that only "one" religion is correct. That argument is flawed, by it's very nature. |
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Date: 5/20/2003 9:00:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
I would also point out that a "negative" viewpoint of Wicca, would depend upon the listener of (said) comments, or teaching(s). For example, what may not seem offensive to you (a Christian), may be offensive to us. Telling a non-Christian they are doomed to eternal torment, because they do not believe as you do, would not bother you, in all probability, however, it gets real OLD on the receiving end. Witches & Wiccans are NOT treated well, or with dignity in any Christian class on religion I have ever attended. And, that has been many. But, thank you for you thoughts on the subject |
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Date: 5/20/2003 9:02:00 PM
From Authorid: 15070
that is "LIBERTY", geeze, DEB, your not the only one with a funny keyboard! :P LOL...... |
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